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Reciprocating Compressors

Discussion in 'Residential' started by kena, Aug 11, 2017 at 8:53 PM.

  1. kena

    kena New Member

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    711
    I learned a new one this week, I think. I had to install 3 Guardian condensers this week. 2 - 2.5 ton and 1 - 2 ton.
    These are York contractor condensers. I installed the larger two and had no issues. I installed the 2 ton and the compressor was acting all sorts of weird. Would start, then it wouldn't, then the transformer in the air handler started to blow every time I turned on the thermostat. I checked everything and checked all the wires. Couldn't find anything. Called York and they told me since my air handler coil had a txv I needed a hard start which is an accessory for their reciprocating compressor condensers. I've installed allot condensers... and that was a new one on me. I had to order the hard start since it is made for the unit. I installed it and had all sorts of problems. I had to walk away from it, take a deep breath and headed back. Managed to get it running finally. What's strange is the 2 - 2.5 ton units have reciprocating compressors and they work fine without the hard start. I ordered them anyway... don't need an issue down the road. I've seen plenty of units come with hard starts... Lenox comes to mind. Did I learn something new this week with a reciprocating compressor with txv needing a hard start? York said the reason is the compressor doesn't equalize like a scroll. So it needs the hard start.
     
  2. kena

    kena New Member

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    711
    Just a note... these Guardian's are junk if you ask me. I actually like the York brand condensers... never had any issues with them. But the contractor version look cheap. The fan is extremely loud... but they do seem to work, once they work.
     
  3. crackertech

    crackertech assholiness *

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    Yep you need the hard start kit
     
  4. Septua

    Septua New Member

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    Recips won't typically start with unequal pressures...maybe sometimes but not consistently. Most TXV's are non-bleed, so on shut down system pressures don't equalize, so...you need the hard start with recip compressors and TXV'd coils.

    Something inside the scroll compressors that allows the internal pressures to equalize during off cycles...maybe the check valve on the discharge side that isolates the high side pressure from the actual scrolls. Then on shut down, whatever pressures are around the scrolls can equalize.
     
  5. HMD

    HMD does it matter?

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    which would depend on the txv you installed
     
    R/HVAC likes this.
  6. crackertech

    crackertech assholiness *

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    X2
     
  7. HMD

    HMD does it matter?

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    mine's a 'dry' guardian. with a txv. no hard start
     
  8. Septua

    Septua New Member

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    As an added treat...over the years I replaced a lot of condensing units, not paying attention to the electrics of the old one. Condenser would always start initially and I'd adjust the charge and call it a day...next day HO would call saying the AC wasn't working. It would be during the return trip I discovered the TXV on the indoor coil....woops. :D
     
  9. knave

    knave Out for a rip

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    Why was the xfmr blowing?
     
    Texas-Tech, mike1020 and Zman like this.
  10. Zman

    Zman Hanging by a Thread

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    POE Oil I Presume. What Flavor Refer?
     
  11. mike1020

    mike1020 entitled millennial

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    +1 how does a compressor not starting cause the control circuit transformer to blow up?
     
  12. Septua

    Septua New Member

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    Recip or scroll?
     
  13. Septua

    Septua New Member

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    I ain't gonna' get into the electrical issues...as already noted, shouldn't be related to the hard start issue...but I do have some anecdotes on hard start equipment without functioning hard starts...:D

    Years ago, Coleman (when it was still Coleman) made some high efficiency stuff with TXV's and hard starts. This one guy with a packaged unit called me multiple times saying he'd get home from work and find the house hot. I'd go by his place next morning, find the unit running as designed, blowing cold air and leave an invoice, that they would pay. After 3 or 4 paid invoices, they quit calling. Some time later, I rode by his house and saw a new packaged unit...

    Fast forward a few years, and another guy with a similar unit called, with a similar problem. Only that time, for some reason I turned the unit off and back on, and the compressor wouldn't start...I knew the problem, in that case, was the hard start and also knew what had been the problem with the other guy's unit years before. :D

    Sold a new 12 SEER Trane packaged heat pump to a guy when 12 SEER was the Cadillac model. I knew it had TXV's and knew it had a hard start kit. Got it ducted in, wired up and turned it on. I noticed an ever so slight hesitation of the compressor starting...but passed it off as just being "tight".

    He called next day, saying there was a problem...soon as I walked around to the unit I could "hear" the compressor not running...got to looking at things and discovered one of the hard start kit wires missing. Not disconnected...totally absent. It never got installed at the factory...:rolleyes:
     
  14. knave

    knave Out for a rip

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    I have a question.

    Why don't the bros send a hard start kit with the recip/txv systems? Seems like a novel idea.
     
  15. Chuck

    Chuck The Other Dude

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    Costs too much. Guardian is bargain basement
     
    SmallChange likes this.
  16. kena

    kena New Member

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    I asked the same question. Since there's always the possibility you'll be using a txv, why not jusy include it in the box and give you the option of installing it. York says if I ordered the condenser and air handler from them with a txv they would install the hard start at the factory. Lenox sends the hard start and requires you to install it. Inalways figured with them it's because of their warranty. Compressor starts easier, and possibly lasts longer to fullfill their watranty.

    I want to talk about the electrical issue as it still baffles me. I blew up about 10 transformers over 2 days off this thing. I litterally ran a new thermostat wire out the window to the unit off a new transformer that was connected to a switch. IThe transfor for the Honeywell zone duct board. It smoked in about 5 seconds. I called York and they were clueless. So I took a new contactor, pulled all the wires... walked away for 5 min and came back and rewired it. I also asded the hard start that hadn't worked previously. They system started right up. Personally I didn't initially see anything wrong with the wiring, and the consensing unit would start if you manually pushed it in. My guess... either wired wrong at factory or miss wired. $400 in transformers isn't funny $. Really pissed me off. I only have 40 vac transformers on the van... was thinking of getting some 50's though not sure that would have helped.
     
  17. kena

    kena New Member

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    711
    X2

    But sadly, the hard start is only $29
    Even my supplier didn't know anything about a hard start for the unit. It was news to them. My guess is they don't sell much of that Guardian garbage. They are very loud. We pit these on a very high end new home to save $. The plumbing manager ordered them because he started the job before I started. I guess he killed the plumbing/hvac budget by double and is now teying to save every penny. For $2.5 million... I'd expect all high end units. But I'm not buying rhe house.... I will say they work great. 7200 sq. ft and it cools off exceptionally fast! So as loud as they are, and as. Heap as they look... they work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017 at 6:05 AM
  18. kena

    kena New Member

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    711
    I wish I knew... was hoping someone here could give me an answer. As I wrote above.... I ran it straight off a transformer and not through the air handler and that smoked while attached tonthe unit.
     
  19. kena

    kena New Member

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    711
    After this experience I won't install a Guardian. We do allot of York which I have no complaints though allot of people say they're crap. Personally I like Rheam and Bryant. I like Lenox.... but the price is hard to pass off on the customer. However, I'm trying to get an account with them. Can't get parts or tech support unless you have one. I'll tell you what... if you haven't installed their new 5 ton inverter model... wait to you see all the circuit boards. If you don't have tech support or direct training on them... you don't have a prayer.
     
  20. otto

    otto Bakery Chef

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    I remember when all units from all manufacturers came with hard start, time delay and HP/LP safeties. Then the Janitrol stripped-down units that were taking over the market.The others had to follow suit or lose too many customers.
     
    jpb2 and Catpower like this.